Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?

[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

Gstreamer does not include a MPEG-1 video decoder or a MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 decoder in the set of base plugins and good plugins.  I presume that this is because of patent concerns.  

After looking on the web, I was unable to find anyone requesting royalties for patents for MPEG-1 video or MPEG-1 Audio Layer 1 or 2 (AudioMPEG might be, but their webpage is somewhat ambiguous).  Since the near complete draft standard was publicly available in 1991, any US patents would have to have been filed by 1992 (laws are different in other parts of the world).  Since in the US patents filed before 1995 last the longer of 20 years from the filing date or 17 years after the grant date, patents filed before 1988 generally have expired, so the windows for still valid patents is basically 1988-1992, and getting smaller as time passes.  Among other things, if MPEG-1 video and MPEG-1 audio layer 2 decoders were added, gstreamer could play video cds.   I am not a lawyer, so my grasp of the issues could be wrong.  
I wrote this up in much more detail and put it at:
http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/MPEG_patent_status
and
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/7/18/232618/312

So my questions for this list are:
1. Could a MPEG-1 video decoder that was acceptably licensed and of sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer good plugins?
2. Could a MPEG-1 audio layer 2 decoder that was acceptably licensed and of sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer good plugins?
3. If the answer to either of the above is no, what would prevent that from occurring?  

Thank you.

Josh Cogliati

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[David Schleef]

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 08:51:20PM -0700, [hidden email] wrote:
> So my questions for this list are:
> 1. Could a MPEG-1 video decoder that was acceptably licensed and of
> sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer good plugins?

Not now, because the relevant patents aren't expired.  The point of
-good isn't to pack as much stuff into it as possible -- it's for
stuff that distributors don't have to think twice about.  MPEG-1
video is not at that point yet.  If the explanation why something
can go into -good takes more than about one sentence, it's probably
not OK.

> 2. Could a MPEG-1 audio layer 2 decoder that was acceptably licensed
> and of sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer good plugins?

MPEG-1 audio layer 2 has never been patent encumbered, encoding or
decoding.  There just isn't a good library that has been wrapped.

> 3. If the answer to either of the above is no, what would prevent that
> from occurring?  

Er, uh, code just doesn't just magically appear out of thin air.  :)



dave...


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[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

Thank you for the answers.  I have some follow up questions inline below:

--- On Sat, 8/23/08, David Schleef <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: David Schleef <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [gst-devel] Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?
> To: [hidden email], "Discussion of the development of GStreamer" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Saturday, August 23, 2008, 2:15 PM
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 08:51:20PM -0700,
> [hidden email] wrote:
> > So my questions for this list are:
> > 1. Could a MPEG-1 video decoder that was acceptably
> licensed and of
> > sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer good
> plugins?
>
> Not now, because the relevant patents aren't expired.
> The point of
> -good isn't to pack as much stuff into it as possible
> -- it's for
> stuff that distributors don't have to think twice
> about.  MPEG-1
> video is not at that point yet.  If the explanation why
> something
> can go into -good takes more than about one sentence,
> it's probably
> not OK.

Okay.  What are some of the relevant patents that are unexpired?  In my internet search, I have not found a single place or person that listed a single unexpired MPEG-1 Video patent.  Of course, I fully realize that there may be patents out there even if nobody on this list can name any.  
 
> > 2. Could a MPEG-1 audio layer 2 decoder that was
> acceptably licensed
> > and of sufficient quality be added to the gstreamer
> good plugins?
>
> MPEG-1 audio layer 2 has never been patent encumbered,
> encoding or
> decoding.  There just isn't a good library that has
> been wrapped.

Okay, so let me check.  If libTwoLAME, an LGPL library that encodes MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 was wrapped, and assuming that it was of sufficient quality then it could be included in gstreamer plugins-good?  
http://www.twolame.org/
http://packages.debian.org/etch/twolame

Also, lets say that mpegaudioparse, which is currently in plugins-ugly, had *all* the MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 parsing removed, and a new plugin called something like mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse was created.  Could this hypothetical mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse be added to plugins-good?

> > 3. If the answer to either of the above is no, what
> would prevent that
> > from occurring?  
>
> Er, uh, code just doesn't just magically appear out of
> thin air.  :)

I agree, but I wanted to know if it was worth creating the code.  :)
 
>
> dave...

Josh Cogliati

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[David Schleef]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 07:41:53AM -0700, [hidden email] wrote:

> > Not now, because the relevant patents aren't expired.
> > The point of
> > -good isn't to pack as much stuff into it as possible
> > -- it's for
> > stuff that distributors don't have to think twice
> > about.  MPEG-1
> > video is not at that point yet.  If the explanation why
> > something
> > can go into -good takes more than about one sentence,
> > it's probably
> > not OK.
>
> Okay.  What are some of the relevant patents that are unexpired?
> In my internet search, I have not found a single place or person
> that listed a single unexpired MPEG-1 Video patent.  Of course, I
> fully realize that there may be patents out there even if nobody
> on this list can name any.  

That's not the point.  I don't think there is any patent protection
on MPEG-1 video decoding either.  However, IMO, when people deploying
gst-plugins-good hear "MPEG", they think "what about patents?".  This
is not the look we're going for with gst-plugins-good.

> Okay, so let me check.  If libTwoLAME, an LGPL library that encodes
> MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 was wrapped, and assuming that it was of
> sufficient quality then it could be included in gstreamer plugins-good?  

Yes.  Feel free to improve the one in -bad.

> Also, lets say that mpegaudioparse, which is currently in
> plugins-ugly, had *all* the MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 parsing removed,
> and a new plugin called something like mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> was created.  Could this hypothetical mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> be added to plugins-good?

Unless I misunderstand something, mpegaudioparse could be moved to
-good as is.  However, I imagine that whomever made the decision in
the past (check the archive) also used the "MPEG -> ugly" rule.



dave...


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[Sebastian Dröge-7]

Am Sonntag, den 24.08.2008, 09:29 -0700 schrieb David Schleef:
> > Okay, so let me check.  If libTwoLAME, an LGPL library that encodes
> > MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 was wrapped, and assuming that it was of
> > sufficient quality then it could be included in gstreamer plugins-good?  
>
> Yes.  Feel free to improve the one in -bad.

IMHO the one in -bad is ready to be moved to -good or -ugly (I'd prefer
-ugly because it's MPEG and because of the reasons you mentioned above).

It's more or less the same code as the lame plugin with just the
function names and properties exchanged.

> > Also, lets say that mpegaudioparse, which is currently in
> > plugins-ugly, had *all* the MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 parsing removed,
> > and a new plugin called something like mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> > was created.  Could this hypothetical mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> > be added to plugins-good?
>
> Unless I misunderstand something, mpegaudioparse could be moved to
> -good as is.  However, I imagine that whomever made the decision in
> the past (check the archive) also used the "MPEG -> ugly" rule.

It was moved to -ugly because it's not very useful without a decoder and
because it's "MPEG"... It could be moved to -good without problems as
the frames for all three layers and three possible mpeg audio versions
are essentially the same for the parser.


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[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

Okay, here is a recap of the patent status as I understand it:
MPEG-2 Patent encumbered.  MPEG-LA claims quite a few patents
MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 (MP3) Patent encumbered.  AudioMPEG, Lucent and Thompson claim patents.
MPEG-1 Video.  No unexpired patents known to this list, but might be patent encumbered.
MPEG-1 Audio Layers 1 and 2.  No unexpired patents known to this list, but might be patent encumbered.

Because of patent worries, even MPEG-1 Video and MPEG-1 Audio Layers 1 and 2 decoders and encoders might not be able to be added to plugins-good even if the code would otherwise be acceptable.  

Is that correct?

Josh Cogliati


--- On Sun, 8/24/08, David Schleef <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: David Schleef <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [gst-devel] Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?
> To: [hidden email], "Discussion of the development of GStreamer" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 10:29 AM
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 07:41:53AM -0700,
> [hidden email] wrote:
> > > Not now, because the relevant patents aren't
> expired.
> > > The point of
> > > -good isn't to pack as much stuff into it as
> possible
> > > -- it's for
> > > stuff that distributors don't have to think
> twice
> > > about.  MPEG-1
> > > video is not at that point yet.  If the
> explanation why
> > > something
> > > can go into -good takes more than about one
> sentence,
> > > it's probably
> > > not OK.
> >
> > Okay.  What are some of the relevant patents that are
> unexpired?
> > In my internet search, I have not found a single place
> or person
> > that listed a single unexpired MPEG-1 Video patent.
> Of course, I
> > fully realize that there may be patents out there even
> if nobody
> > on this list can name any.  
>
> That's not the point.  I don't think there is any
> patent protection
> on MPEG-1 video decoding either.  However, IMO, when people
> deploying
> gst-plugins-good hear "MPEG", they think
> "what about patents?".  This
> is not the look we're going for with gst-plugins-good.
>
> > Okay, so let me check.  If libTwoLAME, an LGPL library
> that encodes
> > MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 was wrapped, and assuming that it
> was of
> > sufficient quality then it could be included in
> gstreamer plugins-good?  
>
> Yes.  Feel free to improve the one in -bad.
>
> > Also, lets say that mpegaudioparse, which is currently
> in
> > plugins-ugly, had *all* the MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3
> parsing removed,
> > and a new plugin called something like
> mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> > was created.  Could this hypothetical
> mpegaudiolayer_1_and_2parse
> > be added to plugins-good?
>
> Unless I misunderstand something, mpegaudioparse could be
> moved to
> -good as is.  However, I imagine that whomever made the
> decision in
> the past (check the archive) also used the "MPEG ->
> ugly" rule.
>
>
>
> dave...

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[Olivier Crête-2]

On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:36 -0700, [hidden email] wrote:
> Okay, here is a recap of the patent status as I understand it:
> MPEG-1 Video.  No unexpired patents known to this list, but might be patent encumbered.

The mpeg-1 standard dates from 1990, so the patents are expired in most
jurisdictions (well all jurisdictions that I know of..)

--
Olivier Crête
[hidden email]
Collabora Ltd

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[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

The only MPEG-1 patent listed in the ISO patent database has expired.  But there still could be patents since before 1995 in the US, patents expired the longer of 20 years after being filed or 17 years after being granted.  So if a patent was filed in 1990, it would not expire till at least 2010 and if the patent office was slow to grant the patent, it could take even longer.  


--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Olivier Crête <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Olivier Crête <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [gst-devel] Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 8:52 PM
> On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:36 -0700,
> [hidden email] wrote:
> > Okay, here is a recap of the patent status as I
> understand it:
> > MPEG-1 Video.  No unexpired patents known to this
> list, but might be patent encumbered.
>
> The mpeg-1 standard dates from 1990, so the patents are
> expired in most
> jurisdictions (well all jurisdictions that I know of..)
>
> --
> Olivier Crête
> [hidden email]
> Collabora Ltd
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[Gabriel Bouvigne-2]

David Schleef a écrit :

> MPEG-1 audio layer 2 has never been patent encumbered, encoding or
> decoding.  There just isn't a good library that has been wrapped.

Mpeg-1 audio Layer II is covered by some Patents from Philips (and
possibly other companies, Philips is just the one that immediately came
to my mind), and Mpeg-2 Layer II even more.
There was not much public noise about them because it was not
commercially worth it and it was better to use those patents to gather
fees/settlements from Layer III implementors/sellers/distributors.

--
Gabriel

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[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

Is there anywhere that has a list of these patents?  They have got to be pretty close to expiring if they have not already expired. I looked through the US MPEG-2 patents that Philips has
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MPEG-2#Patents based on http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-patentlist.cfm ) and none sounded like audio patents.  

Josh Cogliati


--- On Wed, 8/27/08, Gabriel Bouvigne <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Gabriel Bouvigne <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [gst-devel] Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?
> To: "Discussion of the development of GStreamer" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 4:25 AM
> David Schleef a écrit :
>
> > MPEG-1 audio layer 2 has never been patent encumbered,
> encoding or
> > decoding.  There just isn't a good library that
> has been wrapped.
>
> Mpeg-1 audio Layer II is covered by some Patents from
> Philips (and
> possibly other companies, Philips is just the one that
> immediately came
> to my mind), and Mpeg-2 Layer II even more.
> There was not much public noise about them because it was
> not
> commercially worth it and it was better to use those
> patents to gather
> fees/settlements from Layer III
> implementors/sellers/distributors.
>
> --
> Gabriel

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[Gabriel Bouvigne-2]

[hidden email] a écrit :
> Is there anywhere that has a list of these patents?

You posted such a list yourself:
http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/MPEG_patent_status

> I looked through the US MPEG-2 patents that Philips has
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MPEG-2#Patents based on http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-patentlist.cfm ) and none sounded like audio patents.

Probably because MPEG-LA is not a licensing authority for MPEG1/2 Layer
I/II/III patents.

--
Gabriel


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[jjcogliati-gstreamer]

--- On Thu, 8/28/08, Gabriel Bouvigne <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Gabriel Bouvigne <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [gst-devel] Can a MPEG-1 with Audio Layers 1&2 plugin be in plugins-good (patentwise)?
> To: [hidden email], "Discussion of the development of GStreamer" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 3:49 AM
> [hidden email] a écrit :
> > Is there anywhere that has a list of these patents?
>
> You posted such a list yourself:
> http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/MPEG_patent_status
Yep, I put up a list of MPEG-2 patents and MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3 patents.  But I didn't put up a list of MPEG-1 video patents or MPEG-1 Audio Layers 1 and 2 patents because I have not found anyone saying that they have them.  

So basically, I haven't found a list of MPEG-1 patents (other than MP3 patents), and no one on this list has managed to name any.  

> > I looked through the US MPEG-2 patents that Philips
> has
> > ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MPEG-2#Patents
> based on http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-patentlist.cfm ) and
> none sounded like audio patents.
>
> Probably because MPEG-LA is not a licensing authority for
> MPEG1/2 Layer
> I/II/III patents.
>
> --
> Gabriel

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