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Mozilla & gstreamer

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Michael Dale-4

Mozilla & gstreamer

Mozilla is looking to include auiod/video capture for Firefox and the
Mozilla platform in the future. Gstreamer was proposed as a technical
solution. Technical issues aside Chris Blizzard expressed concern over
issues with licenses. Before technical issues for gstreamer with Mozilla
Firefox can be fully considered the license issues have to be sorted.

As far as I understand (hopefully Mozilla will follow up with some
details) the core code and the code for the capture modules would have
to be trilicensed? Since everything is already available under the least
restrictive form (the LGPL) I imagine the gstreamer community would be
oky with this. I don't think the purpose of the gstreamer communities
license choices where to exclude the use of the library by Mozilla
foundation open source web browser.

If these license issues can be sorted a more technical discussion can
follow as to whether gstreamer would be the best choice for inclusion of
these features into the Mozilla platform.

--michael

Christopher Blizzard wrote:

> We can't ship gstreamer. We don't ship under the LGPL.
>
> That being said, we can link to it on Linux. We would just need
> something for the Mac and Windows as well.
>
> --Chris
> _______________________________________________
> theora mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora
>

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David Ascher-3

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

On 6/17/09 1:05 PM, Michael Dale wrote:
> Mozilla is looking to include auiod/video capture for Firefox and the
> Mozilla platform in the future. Gstreamer was proposed as a technical
> solution. Technical issues aside Chris Blizzard expressed concern over
> issues with licenses. Before technical issues for gstreamer with
> Mozilla Firefox can be fully considered the license issues have to be
> sorted.

A side note: I believe that the context was Thunderbird, not Firefox.
The licensing restrictions aren't any different, and it's possible that
Firefox would do something like that, but I just wanted to set the context.

Also, my comment was that I'd want to explore what's possible as
Thunderbird add-on -- it's way, way too early to talk about inclusion of
anything in Thunderbird or Firefox. I'd be fine with an add-on that was
Linux only and LGPL, for example, as it'd be an experiment, not a part
of Thunderbird.

> If these license issues can be sorted a more technical discussion can
> follow as to whether gstreamer would be the best choice for inclusion
> of these features into the Mozilla platform.

As Chris mentioned, cross-platform support is at least as important I
suspect from a Mozilla POV. I'm ignorant: what's the state of gstreamer
on Windows/Mac?

--david

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Michael Dale-4

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

yea but its important to set the long term path now.. so our add-ons use
the right framework.

Firefogg.org client side transcoding (and hopefully soon audio capture)
right now it uses ffmpeg2theora. If we know that gstreamer is in the
road-map we would start designing the add-on with that direction in-mind.

--michael

David Ascher wrote:

> On 6/17/09 1:05 PM, Michael Dale wrote:
>> Mozilla is looking to include auiod/video capture for Firefox and the
>> Mozilla platform in the future. Gstreamer was proposed as a technical
>> solution. Technical issues aside Chris Blizzard expressed concern
>> over issues with licenses. Before technical issues for gstreamer with
>> Mozilla Firefox can be fully considered the license issues have to be
>> sorted.
>
> A side note: I believe that the context was Thunderbird, not Firefox.
> The licensing restrictions aren't any different, and it's possible
> that Firefox would do something like that, but I just wanted to set
> the context.
>
> Also, my comment was that I'd want to explore what's possible as
> Thunderbird add-on -- it's way, way too early to talk about inclusion
> of anything in Thunderbird or Firefox. I'd be fine with an add-on
> that was Linux only and LGPL, for example, as it'd be an experiment,
> not a part of Thunderbird.
>
>> If these license issues can be sorted a more technical discussion can
>> follow as to whether gstreamer would be the best choice for inclusion
>> of these features into the Mozilla platform.
>
> As Chris mentioned, cross-platform support is at least as important I
> suspect from a Mozilla POV. I'm ignorant: what's the state of
> gstreamer on Windows/Mac?
>
> --david
>
>

michael smith-6-3

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Michael Dale-4

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Michael Dale<[hidden email]> wrote:

Getting GStreamer relicensed under the mozilla-style tri-license would
be... effectively impossible, I would expect.

Additionally, gstreamer does NOT have capture plugins that actually
work reliably on mac or windows (there are some, but not of high
quality), so there would be a lot of work needed there anyway.

Though I think gstreamer is a good platform, it seems a poor match for
mozilla's needs on both the technical and legal levels; it's unlikely
to be worth pursuing unless at least the legal hurdle changes.

Mike

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Saoshyant

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

On 6/18/09, Michael Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Getting GStreamer relicensed under the mozilla-style tri-license would
> be... effectively impossible, I would expect.

Not to say unnecessary. Like most people know, the whole point of the
LGPL is that you can ship a library along a project with an
incompatible license, because the former is separated from the latter.

The real question is, is gstreamer multi-platform already? I recall
they were trying to make it work in Windows, but it wasn't ready? I
don't remember details.

-Ivo

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Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller-2

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Michael Dale-4

Hi Michael,
As Michael Smith pointed out, relicensing GStreamer would be very hard,
the problem is that when you been around 10 years, the list of
contributors tend to become very large for a project as big as
GStreamer. That said I don't think any of us have any big issues with
the MPL as such, as it is pretty much equivalent to the terms of the
LGPL, so it is just about the huge amount of work it would be to find
all the past contributors and get them to agree, and in the case someone
has fallen off the face of the planet, figure out exactly what they
contributed back in the day to see if it is still in there and if so if
it can be replaced. If we limit the relicensing to the core that would
make it a bit more viable though.

Of course my feeling is that this change would probably not be enough
for Mozilla, as glib would still be LGPL-only, and I think getting glib
relicensed would probably be an even more herculean task.

I have been talking with Christopher about GStreamer and Mozilla from
time to time, and while I would be willing to do some legwork to get
code tri-licensed, my impression is that no plausible relicensing option
would be acceptable for Mozilla. (Not a criticism of Mozilla, just a
statement of the current status).

So my current hope is that we will reach a point where Mozilla decides
that all this media stuff is just to painful to handle themselves and
thus be willing to reconsider the licensing requirement :)

Christian

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 13:05 -0700, Michael Dale wrote:

> Mozilla is looking to include auiod/video capture for Firefox and the
> Mozilla platform in the future. Gstreamer was proposed as a technical
> solution. Technical issues aside Chris Blizzard expressed concern over
> issues with licenses. Before technical issues for gstreamer with Mozilla
> Firefox can be fully considered the license issues have to be sorted.
>
> As far as I understand (hopefully Mozilla will follow up with some
> details) the core code and the code for the capture modules would have
> to be trilicensed? Since everything is already available under the least
> restrictive form (the LGPL) I imagine the gstreamer community would be
> oky with this. I don't think the purpose of the gstreamer communities
> license choices where to exclude the use of the library by Mozilla
> foundation open source web browser.
>
> If these license issues can be sorted a more technical discussion can
> follow as to whether gstreamer would be the best choice for inclusion of
> these features into the Mozilla platform.
>
> --michael
>
>
> Christopher Blizzard wrote:
> > We can't ship gstreamer. We don't ship under the LGPL.
> >
> > That being said, we can link to it on Linux. We would just need
> > something for the Mac and Windows as well.
> >
> > --Chris
> > _______________________________________________
> > theora mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited
> royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
> server and web deployment.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gstreamer-devel

Tim-Philipp Müller-2

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by michael smith-6-3

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 17:33 -0700, Michael Smith wrote:

> Additionally, gstreamer does NOT have capture plugins that actually
> work reliably on mac or windows (there are some, but not of high
> quality), so there would be a lot of work needed there anyway.

In the grand scheme of things, this seems to be a rather minor issue,
especially seeing that the basics are there already and people clearly
have managed to make this work, e.g. in commercial videoconferencing
software based on GStreamer.

> Though I think gstreamer is a good platform, it seems a poor match for
> mozilla's needs on both the technical and legal levels

Care to elaborate a bit on *why* you think that? (in particular why it's
a poor match on a technical level)

Cheers
-Tim

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Xavier Bestel

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller-2

Hi,

Mozilla already uses GTK+ (but it doesn't ship it), so GLib wouldn't be
a problem IMHO.

Xav

On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 12:32 +0100, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller
wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> As Michael Smith pointed out, relicensing GStreamer would be very hard,
> the problem is that when you been around 10 years, the list of
> contributors tend to become very large for a project as big as
> GStreamer. That said I don't think any of us have any big issues with
> the MPL as such, as it is pretty much equivalent to the terms of the
> LGPL, so it is just about the huge amount of work it would be to find
> all the past contributors and get them to agree, and in the case someone
> has fallen off the face of the planet, figure out exactly what they
> contributed back in the day to see if it is still in there and if so if
> it can be replaced. If we limit the relicensing to the core that would
> make it a bit more viable though.
>
> Of course my feeling is that this change would probably not be enough
> for Mozilla, as glib would still be LGPL-only, and I think getting glib
> relicensed would probably be an even more herculean task.
>
> I have been talking with Christopher about GStreamer and Mozilla from
> time to time, and while I would be willing to do some legwork to get
> code tri-licensed, my impression is that no plausible relicensing option
> would be acceptable for Mozilla. (Not a criticism of Mozilla, just a
> statement of the current status).
>
> So my current hope is that we will reach a point where Mozilla decides
> that all this media stuff is just to painful to handle themselves and
> thus be willing to reconsider the licensing requirement :)
>
> Christian
>
>
> On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 13:05 -0700, Michael Dale wrote:
> > Mozilla is looking to include auiod/video capture for Firefox and the
> > Mozilla platform in the future. Gstreamer was proposed as a technical
> > solution. Technical issues aside Chris Blizzard expressed concern over
> > issues with licenses. Before technical issues for gstreamer with Mozilla
> > Firefox can be fully considered the license issues have to be sorted.
> >
> > As far as I understand (hopefully Mozilla will follow up with some
> > details) the core code and the code for the capture modules would have
> > to be trilicensed? Since everything is already available under the least
> > restrictive form (the LGPL) I imagine the gstreamer community would be
> > oky with this. I don't think the purpose of the gstreamer communities
> > license choices where to exclude the use of the library by Mozilla
> > foundation open source web browser.
> >
> > If these license issues can be sorted a more technical discussion can
> > follow as to whether gstreamer would be the best choice for inclusion of
> > these features into the Mozilla platform.
> >
> > --michael
> >
> >
> > Christopher Blizzard wrote:
> > > We can't ship gstreamer. We don't ship under the LGPL.
> > >
> > > That being said, we can link to it on Linux. We would just need
> > > something for the Mac and Windows as well.
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > theora mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial
> > Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited
> > royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
> > server and web deployment.
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> > gstreamer-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gstreamer-devel
>
>
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Tim-Philipp Müller-2

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Michael Dale-4

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 13:05 -0700, Michael Dale wrote:

> Mozilla is looking to include audio/video capture for Firefox and the
> Mozilla platform in the future.

Apologies if this is obvious to everyone else, but may I ask what kind
of audio/video capturing features you are looking to include exactly? Is
there a wiki page or mailing list discussion with more details
somewhere?

Cheers
-Tim

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Christopher Blizzard-2

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller-2

Yeah, the relicensing question feels a _little_ early. David is
interested in some of this stuff for Thunderbird but there are parts
that we definitely want for Firefox as well. In particular the video
roadmap that I would like to see in place includes:

0. Improving the video APIs that we have in the browser so that we can
do frame-by-frame rendering and stepping. Also better control over
buffering and connecting clips together. This would allow us to build
effects in HTML, SVG + JS and is the first step to an online editor.
We can connect that to 1 below and do encoding + upload as well.
Michael can do this with firefogg today I think, but I want this built
into the browser as something anyone can do. (Note: this goes way
beyond the HTML5 stuff so we'll have to be willing to do that.)

1. An html-based camera + video capture API. This isn't just an add-
on like interface for JS people but also includes preview + style like
we have with the html5 video element. Think of it as a file upload on
steroids. An image interface is easy - just encode to jpg or png or
whatever, and upload it. Video is more challenging and where the
opportunity is. I would like to see us include capture for mac,
windows + linux, encode to Theora and upload via the file upload API
that we have today. This brings video production to browsers (like we
have text + image production today via blogs, etc.) but also continues
the path to make ogg, theora and vorbis part of the underlying
structure of the web.

2. Longer term (and I haven't been able to get much traction inside of
Mozilla for this besides "that would be nice") is to include some kind
of real time p2p protocol that's also exposed like the video element
is today - fully scriptable, styled, usable through canvas, etc. My
test for this is "install a wordpress plugin and you can talk to me
via that" instead of having to use gmail, skype or any of the other
huge centralized systems.

So that's where I want to see us go and it's a multi-year kind of
thing. Part of it is the need to allow people like Michael and others
to finish their editor projects, but I also want to see us get to the
point where where changing the way that video on the web is consumed
and produced that that free formats are at the center of that.

Licensing is only a small part of that but here's what I would suggest
we start with:

1. Assume that code for the capture can be shared between gstreamer +
Mozilla. If we can use the v4l2src module as a base to start with and
find everyone who has contributed to it and get it re-licensed that
would be awesome - it's a good base to start working together. But
assume that we'll do it without glib and without the gstreamer bits so
we'll need to make sure we're thinking about that. We can make sure
we're good citizens @ Mozilla about making sure that changes that we
do are exposed, but it's up to the gstreamer people to make sure that
the code that's in gstreamer is also tri-licensed and that
contributions to that code are also tri-licensed so we can use them in
Mozilla. (Right now the code contributions would only flow one-way -
something I would like to avoid.) I would assume that Mozilla will
invest here so you're likely to have access to some windows + mac
capture code at some point. If we plan to collaborate ahead of time
we can set some expectations about what that sharing looks like and
the licenses involved.

2. I talked with Christian about this at FOSDEM a little bit and it
sounds like they might be willing to re-license some of the RTP stuff
they have as well. That's entirely up to them and it's a really long
term project for us - and something that we're probably not willing to
fund quite yet (although I think we should.) I'm not sure what form
that should take. I think that trying to hit some kind of SIP-
compatibility is the wrong answer, especially to start. Huge set of
constraints and sets us down the path to compatibility with existing
systems instead of trying to do p2p video + audio chat like the web
would do it instead of the way that telcos and businesses would do
it. So that's something that needs to be well-scoped and understood.
Worth talking about at OVC anyway.

--Chris

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David Ascher-3

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Tim-Philipp Müller-2

On 6/18/09 5:28 AM, Tim-Philipp Müller wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 13:05 -0700, Michael Dale wrote:
>
>
>> Mozilla is looking to include audio/video capture for Firefox and the
>> Mozilla platform in the future.
>>
> Apologies if this is obvious to everyone else, but may I ask what kind
> of audio/video capturing features you are looking to include exactly? Is
> there a wiki page or mailing list discussion with more details
> somewhere?
>

Not AFAIK. In the Thunderbird context, there's been fairly little
thought, except that "wouldn't it be cool to be able to use the onboard
cameras to send videomail".

--david

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lrn-2

Re: Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Xavier Bestel

On 18.06.2009 16:17, Xavier Bestel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Mozilla already uses GTK+ (but it doesn't ship it), so GLib wouldn't be
> a problem IMHO.
>
How is GStreamer different from GTK/GLib?

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Steve Kann

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

In reply to this post by Christopher Blizzard-2

Christopher Blizzard wrote:

> 1. An html-based camera + video capture API. This isn't just an add-
> on like interface for JS people but also includes preview + style like
> we have with the html5 video element. Think of it as a file upload on
> steroids. An image interface is easy - just encode to jpg or png or
> whatever, and upload it. Video is more challenging and where the
> opportunity is. I would like to see us include capture for mac,
> windows + linux, encode to Theora and upload via the file upload API
> that we have today. This brings video production to browsers (like we
> have text + image production today via blogs, etc.) but also continues
> the path to make ogg, theora and vorbis part of the underlying
> structure of the web.
>

FWIW, we have a cross-platform capture library, (that we ultimately use
with theora), which is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/libvidcap

It supports mac, windows and linux. Presently LGPL, but there are few
authors, and re-licensing could be possible if there's interest (we'd
have to make sure we're not depending on or derived from LGPL code).

Unfortunately, it hasn't been widely publicized or adopted, (and we have
some enhancements we haven't sent out to sourceforge lately, mainly
because we haven't seen it picked up), but it forms a working library
that accomplishes the goals you've set forth.

-SteveK

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Conrad Parker

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

2009/6/19 Steve Kann <[hidden email]>:

> Christopher Blizzard wrote:
>> 1. An html-based camera + video capture API. This isn't just an add-
>> on like interface for JS people but also includes preview + style like
>> we have with the html5 video element. Think of it as a file upload on
>> steroids. An image interface is easy - just encode to jpg or png or
>> whatever, and upload it. Video is more challenging and where the
>> opportunity is. I would like to see us include capture for mac,
>> windows + linux, encode to Theora and upload via the file upload API
>> that we have today. This brings video production to browsers (like we
>> have text + image production today via blogs, etc.) but also continues
>> the path to make ogg, theora and vorbis part of the underlying
>> structure of the web.
>>
>
> FWIW, we have a cross-platform capture library, (that we ultimately use
> with theora), which is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/libvidcap
>
> It supports mac, windows and linux. Presently LGPL, but there are few
> authors, and re-licensing could be possible if there's interest (we'd
> have to make sure we're not depending on or derived from LGPL code).
>
> Unfortunately, it hasn't been widely publicized or adopted, (and we have
> some enhancements we haven't sent out to sourceforge lately, mainly
> because we haven't seen it picked up), but it forms a working library
> that accomplishes the goals you've set forth.

This looks pretty neat:

* ~10,000 lines of code (about 1000 lines of which is colorspace
conversion, can this be merged with existing code from oggplay?)
* supports v4l2, quicktime and directshow
* has timing code for forcing framerate
* known to work with theora

Perhaps those updates need to be pushed so people can play with the latest code?

Conrad.

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Bill Cholewka

Re: [theora] Mozilla & gstreamer

> > Christopher Blizzard wrote:

> >> 1. An html-based camera + video capture API. This isn't just an add-
> >> on like interface for JS people but also includes preview + style like
> >> we have with the html5 video element. Think of it as a file upload on
> >> steroids. An image interface is easy - just encode to jpg or png or
> >> whatever, and upload it. Video is more challenging and where the
> >> opportunity is. I would like to see us include capture for mac,
> >> windows + linux, encode to Theora and upload via the file upload API
> >> that we have today. This brings video production to browsers (like we
> >> have text + image production today via blogs, etc.) but also continues
> >> the path to make ogg, theora and vorbis part of the underlying
> >> structure of the web.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, we have a cross-platform capture library, (that we ultimately use
> > with theora), which is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/libvidcap
> >
> > It supports mac, windows and linux. Presently LGPL, but there are few
> > authors, and re-licensing could be possible if there's interest (we'd
> > have to make sure we're not depending on or derived from LGPL code).
> >
> > Unfortunately, it hasn't been widely publicized or adopted, (and we have
> > some enhancements we haven't sent out to sourceforge lately, mainly
> > because we haven't seen it picked up), but it forms a working library
> > that accomplishes the goals you've set forth.
>
> This looks pretty neat:
>
> * ~10,000 lines of code (about 1000 lines of which is colorspace
> conversion, can this be merged with existing code from oggplay?)

We're working on taking advantage of any platform-provided colorspace facilities

> * supports v4l2, quicktime and directshow
> * has timing code for forcing framerate
> * known to work with theora
>
> Perhaps those updates need to be pushed so people can play with the latest code?

I'll see about pushing anything that's ready. We're also working on loosening-up our overly-strict requirements that capture size exactly match the native resolution. We want libvidcap to honor any reasonable framesize request, regardless of the native resolution. That and the colorspace changes are in their infancy, so pushing them to trunk are slightly premature.

We welcome any suggestions, input, and help.

Cheers,
Bill

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