Gran Canaria meeting notes

[Thomas Vander Stichele]

Hi gang,

I had sent my notes to Jan a while ago, and Jan was going to integrate
his notes, but then life caught up or something.

So instead, here are both his and my raw notes, for those that can still
make sense of it! Consider it like the exclusive limited edition
dvd-only backdoor access for those who weren't there.

Thomas

--
the things I do posess
sometimes they own me too
--
MOAP - Maintaining your projects since 2006
https://apestaart.org/moap/trac/


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[Sebastian Dröge-7]

> So instead, here are both his and my raw notes, for those that can
> still make sense of it!

Thanks Thomas, at least for me everything makes sense ;)



Some notes on some of the notes :)

> bindings
>         what problems do we create for bindings ?
>                 C-based stuff like writability based on refcounting ?

Yes, that one is a big problem for bindings IMHO and we should
definitely get this fixed somehow for 0.11/1.0.

> newsegment
>         makes pipelines harder to do dynamically
>                 caching in the pad: great

See: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=601582

Tag caching could be implemented in 0.10 exactly the same way if people
want it.

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[Tim-Philipp Müller-2]

On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 16:21 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote:

Hi,

> I had sent my notes to Jan a while ago, and Jan was going to integrate
> his notes, but then life caught up or something.
>
> So instead, here are both his and my raw notes, for those that can still
> make sense of it! Consider it like the exclusive limited edition
> dvd-only backdoor access for those who weren't there.

Thanks, I've also put those notes into the wiki now:

http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/wiki/GStreamerSummitGranCanaria2009Notes

Cheers
 -Tim



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[Bastien Nocera-2]

On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 16:21 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote:
> == GStreamer 1.0 ==
> Possible items:
> * Easier installations for other platforms
>   - Windows and OS/X installs

I'd definitely be interested in making Totem and Rhythmbox work better
on MacOS X (for which I actually have test machines).

<snip>
> == Supporting KDE/Qt better ==
> * Need examples of GMainloop/QtMainloop examples
> * Widget examples
> * applies to OS/X and Windows too - provide more platform example code

Should some parts of Totem's video widget be moved into playbin2, or
something on top of playbin2?

There's things like:
- logo handling (a "rest" image for the movie player, and the main way
to show errors in the browser plugin)
- Parts of the missing-plugins code (Totem offers to play video with no
sound, but not the contrary, Totem's audio preview, as used by nautilus,
will play the sound even if the video can't be handled)
- Better error reporting
- Tags, subtitles and audio tracks handling
- Seeking based on time
- Handling of tick signals
- Make it easier to test whether a sink is available
- Setting visualisations needs a lot of trickery
- Get/Set video output properties (contrast, brightness, etc.)
- Capturing a single frame from a video

I'm pretty sure a lot of those should be playbin helper functions, and
we could shrink Totem's 7k LOC of a video widget.

I'd be happy to start moving some of those into gst-plugins-base, if
somebody tells me where I should add them.

Cheers


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[Edward Hervey]

Hi,

On Thu, 2009-11-26 at 18:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 16:21 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote:
> > == GStreamer 1.0 ==
> > Possible items:
> > * Easier installations for other platforms
> >   - Windows and OS/X installs
>
> I'd definitely be interested in making Totem and Rhythmbox work better
> on MacOS X (for which I actually have test machines).

  IIRC, I think we were talking about SDK and installation systems for
those platforms. Some alternatives have starting popping up for windows
(which enable you to create a 'package' of an application, like
winbuilds), but macosx is still a grey area.
  Getting a gst/gtk application to work on windows/macosx is one thing
(which surprisingly isn't all that hard nowadays codewise).... getting
it bundled/shipped in an easy way is a whole new world of pain though.

>
> <snip>
> > == Supporting KDE/Qt better ==
> > * Need examples of GMainloop/QtMainloop examples
> > * Widget examples
> > * applies to OS/X and Windows too - provide more platform example code
>
> Should some parts of Totem's video widget be moved into playbin2, or
> something on top of playbin2?

  On top of playbin2 would make more sense imho, like a convenience
high-level library for playback handling everything you mentionned
underneath and handle it in a cross-platform way.
  Making higher-level convenience libraries (like quicktime does on
macosx) is a noble goal to achieve for 1.0, easening the integration of
GStreamer in various applications wanting to playback content without
caring about all the gstreamer tidbit/details.

>
> There's things like:
> - logo handling (a "rest" image for the movie player, and the main way
> to show errors in the browser plugin)

  This *could* be added to playbin2... but not 100% certain whether
everybody wants that. Might be better handled in the viewer widget part
(i.e. in convenience lib).

> - Parts of the missing-plugins code (Totem offers to play video with no
> sound, but not the contrary, Totem's audio preview, as used by nautilus,
> will play the sound even if the video can't be handled)

  Couldn't we add some
'missing-video-acceptable'/'missing-audio-acceptable' flags to playbin2
for that ?

> - Better error reporting

  What do you have in mind ? collecting error messages (and maybe other
events/signals/...) and reporting a reduced set of user-visible error
messages specific to playback ?
  Are there some inconsistencies in error messages that we could fix in
lower levels ?

> - Tags, subtitles and audio tracks handling

  That would be nice in the convenience library.

> - Seeking based on time

  Err... because we're doing seeking based on bananas-per-square-mile
right now ? What do you mean by that ?

> - Handling of tick signals

  what do you mean by that ?

> - Make it easier to test whether a sink is available

  What do you have in mind with that ? Using auto*sink should remove the
need for the user to know/need that.

> - Setting visualisations needs a lot of trickery

  Even with current code in playbin2/playsink ? What's missing ?

> - Get/Set video output properties (contrast, brightness, etc.)

  Yup, proxying to a convenience library would be nice for that.

> - Capturing a single frame from a video

  Same comment as above.

>
> I'm pretty sure a lot of those should be playbin helper functions, and
> we could shrink Totem's 7k LOC of a video widget.
>
> I'd be happy to start moving some of those into gst-plugins-base, if
> somebody tells me where I should add them.
>
> Cheers
>
>
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[Bastien Nocera-2]

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 09:28 +0100, Edward Hervey wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 2009-11-26 at 18:55 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 16:21 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote:
> > > == GStreamer 1.0 ==
> > > Possible items:
> > > * Easier installations for other platforms
> > >   - Windows and OS/X installs
> >
> > I'd definitely be interested in making Totem and Rhythmbox work better
> > on MacOS X (for which I actually have test machines).
>
>   IIRC, I think we were talking about SDK and installation systems for
> those platforms. Some alternatives have starting popping up for windows
> (which enable you to create a 'package' of an application, like
> winbuilds), but macosx is still a grey area.
>   Getting a gst/gtk application to work on windows/macosx is one thing
> (which surprisingly isn't all that hard nowadays codewise).... getting
> it bundled/shipped in an easy way is a whole new world of pain though.

Agreed. Richard Hult showed me a running Totem on MacOS X at the GUADEC
in Istanbul, with a couple of one-liner patches, and there's also
patches available for totem-pl-parser and Totem itself in Bugzilla for
Windows.

Getting the build system ready to test Totem would probably be easier
than getting a user-ready installer.

> > <snip>
> > > == Supporting KDE/Qt better ==
> > > * Need examples of GMainloop/QtMainloop examples
> > > * Widget examples
> > > * applies to OS/X and Windows too - provide more platform example code
> >
> > Should some parts of Totem's video widget be moved into playbin2, or
> > something on top of playbin2?
>
>   On top of playbin2 would make more sense imho, like a convenience
> high-level library for playback handling everything you mentionned
> underneath and handle it in a cross-platform way.
>   Making higher-level convenience libraries (like quicktime does on
> macosx) is a noble goal to achieve for 1.0, easening the integration of
> GStreamer in various applications wanting to playback content without
> caring about all the gstreamer tidbit/details.
>
> >
> > There's things like:
> > - logo handling (a "rest" image for the movie player, and the main way
> > to show errors in the browser plugin)
>
>   This *could* be added to playbin2... but not 100% certain whether
> everybody wants that. Might be better handled in the viewer widget part
> (i.e. in convenience lib).

Fair enough

> > - Parts of the missing-plugins code (Totem offers to play video with no
> > sound, but not the contrary, Totem's audio preview, as used by nautilus,
> > will play the sound even if the video can't be handled)
>
>   Couldn't we add some
> 'missing-video-acceptable'/'missing-audio-acceptable' flags to playbin2
> for that ?

Probably not quite flexible enough, though I can't put my finger on why
right now.

> > - Better error reporting
>
>   What do you have in mind ? collecting error messages (and maybe other
> events/signals/...) and reporting a reduced set of user-visible error
> messages specific to playback ?
>   Are there some inconsistencies in error messages that we could fix in
> lower levels ?

This is a long standing problem with the GStreamer backend compared to
the old xine-lib one in that the types of errors were far and few in
xine-lib thus the error messages were targetted at end-users.

> > - Tags, subtitles and audio tracks handling
>
>   That would be nice in the convenience library.
>
> > - Seeking based on time
>
>   Err... because we're doing seeking based on bananas-per-square-mile
> right now ? What do you mean by that ?

Huh, being thick :)
The code in Totem doesn't make use of it, but it's available, I should
change Totem to use that now...

> > - Handling of tick signals
>
>   what do you mean by that ?

Right now, I need to poke at the running playbin a couple of times a
second myself. It would be easier if playbin itself had a tick signal,
and handled emission itself.

> > - Make it easier to test whether a sink is available
>
>   What do you have in mind with that ? Using auto*sink should remove the
> need for the user to know/need that.

In GNOME apps, we use gconf{audio,video}sink so users can debug eventual
problems with those and set the profile in gstreamer-properties.

This is needed to set the profile on gconfaudiosink. Maybe this is not
needed any more...

This also means we need to check whether the output is available to
present an error message to the user.

> > - Setting visualisations needs a lot of trickery
>
>   Even with current code in playbin2/playsink ? What's missing ?

Look at "setup_vis()" in the GStreamer backend.

> > - Get/Set video output properties (contrast, brightness, etc.)
>
>   Yup, proxying to a convenience library would be nice for that.

Cool.

> > - Capturing a single frame from a video
>
>   Same comment as above.

So, where would I move all this code? :)

Cheers


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[Sebastian Dröge-7]

Am Freitag, den 27.11.2009, 12:19 +0000 schrieb Bastien Nocera:

> So, where would I move all this code? :)

I guess gst-plugins-bad/gst-libs/gst/gtk would be a good place to
start :) Btw, David Schleef has started a convenience GTK widget library
too but it disappeared after the fd.o disk failure. You might want to
coordinate with him.

> > > - Seeking based on time
> >
> >   Err... because we're doing seeking based on
> bananas-per-square-mile
> > right now ? What do you mean by that ?
>
> Huh, being thick :)
> The code in Totem doesn't make use of it, but it's available, I should
> change Totem to use that now...

Erm, in what unit does totem seek right now? Time is the only thing that
works in most cases :)

> > > - Handling of tick signals
> >
> >   what do you mean by that ?
>
> Right now, I need to poke at the running playbin a couple of times a
> second myself. It would be easier if playbin itself had a tick signal,
> and handled emission itself.

You only need this to get updated positions, right? IMHO that shouldn't
be in playbin2 and should instead be there where it's needed: in the
widget :)


But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
bvw into some library :)

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[Bastien Nocera-2]

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 15:30 +0100, Sebastian Dröge wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 27.11.2009, 12:19 +0000 schrieb Bastien Nocera:
>
> > So, where would I move all this code? :)
>
> I guess gst-plugins-bad/gst-libs/gst/gtk would be a good place to
> start :) Btw, David Schleef has started a convenience GTK widget library
> too but it disappeared after the fd.o disk failure. You might want to
> coordinate with him.

The point is that most of the functionality isn't GTK+ dependent. Is
that folder supposed to exist or was that an example?

> > > > - Seeking based on time
> > >
> > >   Err... because we're doing seeking based on
> > bananas-per-square-mile
> > > right now ? What do you mean by that ?
> >
> > Huh, being thick :)
> > The code in Totem doesn't make use of it, but it's available, I should
> > change Totem to use that now...
>
> Erm, in what unit does totem seek right now? Time is the only thing that
> works in most cases :)

Was tired when I wrote that I guess. It already does time seeking, never
mind...

> > > > - Handling of tick signals
> > >
> > >   what do you mean by that ?
> >
> > Right now, I need to poke at the running playbin a couple of times a
> > second myself. It would be easier if playbin itself had a tick signal,
> > and handled emission itself.
>
> You only need this to get updated positions, right? IMHO that shouldn't
> be in playbin2 and should instead be there where it's needed: in the
> widget :)

Never said it needed to be in playbin, but it shouldn't need to be
handled solely by the video widget...

> But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
> bvw into some library :)

Less code in Totem means less code for me to maintain, hopefully, which
means that I can focus on functionality instead.


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[Tim-Philipp Müller-2]

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 15:30 +0100, Sebastian Dröge wrote:

> I guess gst-plugins-bad/gst-libs/gst/gtk would be a good place to
> start :) Btw, David Schleef has started a convenience GTK widget library
> too but it disappeared after the fd.o disk failure. You might want to
> coordinate with him.

This one you mean?

http://diracvideo.org/git?p=gst-gtk-widgets.git;a=summary


> But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
> bvw into some library :)

I think it would be great to have this kind of convenience API somewhere
(ideally both for Gtk+ and Qt). Totem's bvw is fairly featureful, but I
don't think it's very nice code or very nice API in its current form. I
think we should think about what we want to support and how, and then
write it from scratch and re-use/copy code from gst-gtk-widgets or bvw
as needed.

Cheers
 -Tim



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[Sebastian Dröge-7]

Am Freitag, den 27.11.2009, 17:28 +0000 schrieb Tim-Philipp Müller:

> > But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
> > bvw into some library :)
>
> I think it would be great to have this kind of convenience API somewhere
> (ideally both for Gtk+ and Qt). Totem's bvw is fairly featureful, but I
> don't think it's very nice code or very nice API in its current form. I
> think we should think about what we want to support and how, and then
> write it from scratch and re-use/copy code from gst-gtk-widgets or bvw
> as needed.

Completely agreed... but we talked about this already at least two
times :)

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[David Schleef-2]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 03:30:43PM +0100, Sebastian Dröge wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 27.11.2009, 12:19 +0000 schrieb Bastien Nocera:
>
> > So, where would I move all this code? :)
>
> I guess gst-plugins-bad/gst-libs/gst/gtk would be a good place to
> start :) Btw, David Schleef has started a convenience GTK widget library
> too but it disappeared after the fd.o disk failure. You might want to
> coordinate with him.

http://code.entropywave.com/git?p=gst-gtk-widgets.git;a=summary



dave...


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[Ali Abdallah-2]

Bastien Nocera wrote:
>> bvw into some library :)
>>    
> But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
>
> Less code in Totem means less code for me to maintain, hopefully, which
> means that I can focus on functionality instead.
>
>  
+1


I started a Gstreamer media player for Xfce, the player is still under
developement, of course i used some of totem's code in it, so this
player will also benefit for the proposed changes.

The project web-page:
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/parole

Thanks,
Ali.


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[Bastien Nocera-2]

On Sat, 2009-11-28 at 10:52 +0100, Ali Abdallah wrote:

> Bastien Nocera wrote:
> >> bvw into some library :)
> >>    
> > But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
> >
> > Less code in Totem means less code for me to maintain, hopefully, which
> > means that I can focus on functionality instead.
> >
> >  
> +1
>
>
> I started a Gstreamer media player for Xfce, the player is still under
> developement, of course i used some of totem's code in it, so this
> player will also benefit for the proposed changes.
>
> The project web-page:
> http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/parole

I have 2 questions about your media player:
- Why? The only thing Totem depends on that's not XFCE-ish is GConf,
dependency which will be removed as soon as dconf bits are available in
glib.
- Your license is incompatible with Totem's license, which means that
any fixes to Parole you won't be able to get into Totem.

Cheers


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[Ali Abdallah-2]

Bastien Nocera wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-11-28 at 10:52 +0100, Ali Abdallah wrote:
>  
>> Bastien Nocera wrote:
>>    
>>>> bvw into some library :)
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> But great that you like to work on abstracting something like totem's
>>>
>>> Less code in Totem means less code for me to maintain, hopefully, which
>>> means that I can focus on functionality instead.
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>> +1
>>
>>
>> I started a Gstreamer media player for Xfce, the player is still under
>> developement, of course i used some of totem's code in it, so this
>> player will also benefit for the proposed changes.
>>
>> The project web-page:
>> http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/parole
>>    
>
> I have 2 questions about your media player:
> - Why? The only thing Totem depends on that's not XFCE-ish is GConf,
> dependency which will be removed as soon as dconf bits are available in
> glib.
>  

That's a question about my motivation of writing this player, nothing to
do with dependencies, i'm not going to post my motivation here, but the
idea is to have a GStreamer alternative to xfmedia (xine based), and not
to clone Totem with no gnome dependencies, i started learning GStreamer
by reading aldegonde, totem's and other GStreamer players code, but at
the end i didn't use the bacon video widget here, the backend that i
wrote is something different but of course inspired from totem/aldegonde...

> - Your license is incompatible with Totem's license,
I really don't care about licenses, but also i don't understand, the
license of the player is like totem's one (GPL2), but the only one
exception is i have no installer for missing proprietary GStreamer plugins.
> which means that
> any fixes to Parole you won't be able to get into Totem.
>
>  
I'm not sure what do you mean, i don't think Totem will benefit from a
fixes in Parole, probably the other way round.


> Cheers
>
>
>  
Cheers,
Ali.

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[Bastien Nocera-2]

On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 16:21 +0100, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote:
> == Supporting KDE/Qt better ==
> * Need examples of GMainloop/QtMainloop examples
> * Widget examples
> * applies to OS/X and Windows too - provide more platform example code
>
> * KDE people say GSTreamer backend for Phonon sucks
> * We don't know who is working on it
> * Video support in Phonon unimplemented
> * Need to get the word out and invite people into #gstreamer

See also:
http://blogs.fsfe.org/mario/?p=35&cpage=1#comment-21

Cheers


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